Should I put my childs father on the birth certificate?

If he doesn’t want to be a dad leave him to it. Walk away and enjoy having your baby all to your self

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Sometimes people grow and change…yes put him on it so your child can chart his heritage and look for family diseases and health. There are also grandparents to consider. Im saying this from experience.

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Your baby has the right to have his dads name on the birth certificate and he needs to pay child support ,regardless of the amount you didn’t make this angels by your self . Good luck and God Bless you and this chils

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I wouldn’t and just not have any contact at all with him. Raise my baby on my own and give him/her the best love he/she could ever have.

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I say yes place the Father’s name on certificate, do not let him not pay for the entertainment time. The child deserves the name that help create him for his journey on earth.

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I would be truthful and put him on the certificate. It’s up to you if you want child support or not. He already knows about baby. Later on he may change his mind and want to meet the child. A friend of mine was in the same situation and he was going to court for support and the childs mother passed away giving birth to her second child with her new hubby. Needless to say, new hubby is raising his new baby and the one born previous is now with biological father. He now can’t imagine life without his daughter. Ya never know.

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Do not put him on the birth certificate. He could kidnap the child and depending on state, the police will do nothing. And you can still file for child support without him being on the birth certificate.

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I work at a birth center and the only way the dad can officially go on birth certificate if not married is if he come in and signs the birth certificate with identification and they notarize the signature. You can put him on the paperwork but won’t be on the certificate otherwise.

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Put him on the birth certificate & claim child support. He is the father.

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My sperm donor is not on the birth certificate. I told him about the baby, he was not interested. So I left that line blank. I kept a few pictures of him and included him in the baby book in case my son ever has questions about him but he has no rights to my son because he isn’t going to come in to the picture whenever it seems convenient. He put no effort into knowing him or helping raise and take care of him so he just that, a sperm donor

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Speaking as someone who has a different biological father than the dad whose name is on my birth certificate, leave it off, but don’t lie to your kid about it, either. There will be questions later on, and you should answer them honestly (and age appropriately). I don’t have an interest in finding my biological father because I know that the relationship between he and my mother wasn’t deep enough to warrant the time and effort it would take to track him down. If my mom had turned him into a mysterious figure, I wouldn’t have known that until after I wasted my time.

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Use your own name. If he wants to be apart later on give him the choice of changing it and if not you’ll be okay ND so will the baby

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As a child who’s father is NOT on my birth certificate. For me it’s always been extremely embarrassing. To have the blank filled with FATHER UNKNOWN , made me feel judged Everytime I had to show it! Like I’M a bastard and my MOM is a PIG! Very disturbing for me anyway!

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You can’t by law put his name on the birth certificate. He has to sign it to be Legally placed on the birth certificate. Financially it’s going to be hard to support a child alone. But you got this! You can fight for him to have financial responsibility. It’s a battle down the road. Just enjoy your pregnancy right now and worry about the other stuff later. Pray and the answers will come to you in time.

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If you ever want to get a passport for your child, it’s so much easier if he’s not on the birth certificate.

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My granddaughter’s father is not on the birth certificate. The pregnancy was an accident . He was living out of state when she was born and the hospital wouldn’t put his name on the certificate since he wasn’t there to sign it. We’re glad it’s not there now since he’s never contributed a cent and if his name was there he could show up at any time and make demands .

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I went thru a similar situation with when I had my son. He’s 15 now and has never seen his sperm donor. He carries my ex husband last name because that was my last name when he was born, and the strange and wonderful part of all of this my husband and his new wife claim my son as their step child. We spend all of our holidays together and are one big strange but happy family.

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If you are in the UK you can’t add him anyway unless he is there in person when you register the birth unless of course you are married to the Dad. I had this issue and my sons dad is not on his. He doesn’t want to know I would of loved him to be involved and to be on it!

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I used to work in the postpartum unit at a hospital and part of my job was delivering the birth certificates. I had always believed that the biological father was supposed to be named on the birth certificate. That is not the case, you don’t have to name anyone, if you name the biological father he will have to sign the birth certificate, and you can even add someone in the future who chooses to love your child as a father. However, as your child grows they may want to know some things about their birth father and/or his heritage, physical/mental/emotional traits, etc. So write a letter or make some documentation and put it in a file somewhere for future reference.

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Put his name for ur child sake…
And go claim child support from dead beat dad also…
Well aleast that’s what I had to do!! Jus saying…
My son don’t care about his dad anyways!! Yep!! He only loves his mama!! Ur welcome!!

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Don’t put it on the birth certificate…he wants nothing to do with the child, but have his information available for the child when it grows up in case he/she wants to know its history health or otherwise. If you plan to keep the child then prepare to take care of it 100%. That was the choice you made when you choose not to abort. It will be okay. You can do it and you have enough love to give to the child.

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Wash your hands and move on! I wouldn’t want anyone to potentially be able to spend any time with my child who suggested they be aborted. Work your butt off and take care of YOUR baby. Y’all don’t need him!

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Why did you hop into bed with a fella after 4 weeks and get pregnant. Do women have sex unprotected with fellas now the 1st night they meet them and not know anything about them. That was crazy. Don’t put his name on the babies birth cert. He only used you and you let him. Just have and rear the little baby.

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Wipe your hands. You will get no child support but you will never be sued for custody either. If he wants to contact you and child at a later date he still could but there would be no legal entanglements.

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You should put him on the birth certificate, it’s not for you it’s for your child. They should be able to look at it and know who their father is if they so wish at any point in their life, its also for other purposes like if anything happened to the two of you godforbid, that would help authorities track him down say if she ever needs an organ or something, and no that’s not to say he will involve himself and I suppose that’s his choice but you shouldn’t take the options away for your child just because of his current choices when your child is yet to make their own x

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If you are only 12 weeks give it time, he may be in shock and when you’re further along or the baby is born he may change his mind and come around. However if he continues to say you should abort and he wants nothing to do with the child and you choose to have it then you are assuming full responsibility for the child and in my opinion you would be scum if you went after him for child support. :woman_shrugging: also you can’t put anyone on the birth certificate he has to sign it to be added.

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Please don’t put him on! Keep that message rather as proof!! I am struggling till this day because I made a mistake to put my baby’s dad on the birth certificate. Now I can’t go anywhere out of South Africa because he is refusing to sign any papers what so ever

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Absolutely move on!! He does not deserve to be called daddy. That is a right he has not earned. Save yourself and your baby the heartache and life of fighting now. You will find the perfect daddy for your baby on day. :blue_heart::purple_heart:

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All these people advocating the mom life for herself is pathetic. She needs to focus on what’s best for the child and a fatherless life is the most detrimental thing this generation is fine with giving children.

Selfish and embarrassing to call that “parenting” from both sides. If they are old enough to have sex and choose a sexual partner they can deal with the reality of life for the child’s sake. Don’t make the child suffer for your regretful life choices

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What’s in a name so to say… he’s the father regardless of his decision I wouldn’t put him on the certificate but you know who he is and if later on he chooses to be in the child’s life then that’s the childs/his/your decision but for now move ahead with your life enjoy the new baby

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Now is the time to think about the child … your child is entitled and deserves to know both parents. Your personal feelings about the father shouldn’t come between the child and their other parent and family.

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There are arguments for both, but what I did was put him on the birth certificate. He broke the engagement, we broke up period. Other family members came & picked baby up for family gatherings, but that was it. Here we are 40+ years later. My child knows both sides & knows who was there…

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My 3 yo bio is not on his and I’m keeping it that way my husband is adopting him and we are changing his last name.

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I would do it for the fact that your baby may want to know him some day but have him sign his rights away.

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20 years ago I had a baby and same sort of thing happened and you know I never put baby’s dad on the birth certificate I put father unknown. 21years later and I have not regretted my decision and my baby girl is 21 this year and she has had some sort of contact with her dad over the few years and he still a beep beep hole.

I think you should put his name on the birth certificate.
He doesn’t have to be in the child’s life or pay child support but your child will naturally question who their father is at some stage in their life.

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It may sound harsh, but with the variety of birth control products on the market, there was no excuse for you getting pregnant. If the sperm donor doesn’t want the child, move on. Be a responsible adult and teach this child, when old enough, to make better choices than you did.

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My suggestion is if you want to keep it go ahead but don’t go claiming child support to him. If he wants nothing to do with it then wipe him clean.

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You can always add it later. And tell your child who the donor is. Lets say you put it on…then along comes a man who wants to be a real father, adopt the child and be the father they deserve. With no name, just do it. With the donors name, gotta legally get him out of the picture.

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Honestly, no. I wouldn’t out him on the birth certificate. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean you can’t take him to court down the road for child support IF ITS NEEDED. My bonus daughter does not have my husband’s last name, we do not have a legal custody agreement with her mom. My husband pays child support, through the state and we get her every weekend. All without her having his last name or being on the birth certificate.

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Give him every chance to be a dad, tell him when your appointments are and be open to having him in the child’s life. At the end of the day he has every right.
But if he continues to have nothing to do with the baby then you have done the right thing & have every right to leave him off it…

I also believe he has to sign the certificate so if he won’t do it then you can’t put him on.

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If you don’t want Child Support I wouldn’t put his name on the birth certificate. If he comes around later on it can always be amended. You take care of you and that baby♥️

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I gave my ex’s last name to my son and it did nothing but have him fight me for joint custody only to disappear after my son turned 2 and owe me 40grand in child support. My son is 26.

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I would, solely for the fact that it’s much easier to get child support if your child has his name. (I’m in the U.S., not sure if it’s different in your country). Best of luck - I’ll keep you in my thoughts & prayers.

It all depends on you & your situation. For instance, I called the ‘dad’ when she was born, and he said ok. As I was poor, DSS pushed child support, and a verification of blood tests, which of course, was his daughter. He was a Postman, making decent money, and I chose to have our child, not him. But DSS went after him for some kind of support. Once all that was clarified, he got her every Sunday for church. I went to church on Sabbath. So this child was really split up in her life. The kids always pays in the end. And when DSS wanted to up his child support payments, I said no. Let the man earn & live his life. I wish I’d never included her Dad, but at the same time, kids will be empty without the other parent, and will find them one day. They are close now, and he & family have lots of money, lots.

He asked for abortion… That baby gets your last name. Deal with the rest as it comes, but I wouldn’t give my baby the name of a person they may never meet.

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I believe you should do what feels right for you and bub. If the father didn’t want a child he knew what to do to prevent that happening.
He is responsible for this child in every way.

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Unless you want a lifetime tie with this man, I would be tempted to just leave him out of the picture. There is, however, a chance that the child will one day want to meet the biological dad. Have a heart-to-heart talk with the man, and If he doesn’t want to be involved I would not force the issue, and leave him off the birth certificate. Hard decision for sure, but you’ll work it out. Good luck. :heart:

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I agree with trying to get legal help. I have heard so many horror stories about trying to get deadbeats to pay child support. It might not be worth the time, energy and heart ache in the long run. Just make sure his wife knows about the baby

You conceived a child w a man who is that child’s father whether he wants to be or not. Your (collective) child has the right to know who her biological parents are no matter how much trouble it causes for either of you! The child is the innocent party here! Everyone else needs to be responsible!

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I don’t think it’s necessary to put him on the birth certificate, but I 100% would get a DNA test and establish that for the sole reason that your child may need to know her genetic history for health reasons later in life. I also think both parents should be financially liable for the child but that’s secondary to the health reasons.

Yes. It’s a decision your child will make when he/she is old enough whether they want the sperm donor in their life.

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Being on the birth certificate is a blessing and he obviously doesn’t want that. Im torn bc your child has a right to have his name on it. So id say put him on it and then put him on child support if you need the help not just bc.

Stop thinking of yourself and think of your baby, how is that baby going to feel in year’s to come when they have to get their birth certificate for something? “Oh my dad was unknown” or there is a blank for my dad? Then there are the thoughts surely my mother wasn’t that loose that she didn’t know who my dad was? Think long and hard before you do this because it could come back and bite you! Know one can just walk in and take your child, the chances are that you won’t see him again but your child does have the right to have a dad on their birth certificate that she/he can track down if they want to

It’s a hard call? Up to you to make! He never wanted the baby! So you choose? Your neither rt or wrong. You chose to have your baby on your own. Personally I would do it on my own? I think you no what’s rt? Your call as a Mom. No judgment

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I would put the name on the certificate and would never put father unknown… the child will see that… it’s not about the mother and her feelings… always do the best thing for the child

No way ! I never let the father sign the birth certificate but did give the baby her dad’s last name. We were young and he was very abusive to our daughter and myself so I left him and divorced him. Glad I never had him sign cause he tried to take her away from me. Since no father listed he could never get our daughter. I did the right thing :blush:

My personal experience- I gave him every opportunity to come to the registry office and be on it and he was a no show, so he isn’t on it. But ive always been honest with my daughter about who he is, never badmouthed him, she’s aware it’s his choice to make an effort for her. Unfortunatly he never has. He has also never paid a single penny to support her over the past 11 yrs not even birthdays or Christmas. So I’m glad he isn’t on there.

As far as child support goes, ive seen how nasty that gets with my own parents. He isn’t in her life (his choice) so I don’t see the point even asking. The last thing u and your child need is more ties to him if he isn’t gonna be around in my opinion.

I feel now my daughter is getting older he may at some point realise all he has missed out on, and that is for him to deal. My daughter will be able to make her own choice if she wants to know him and I will support her choice.

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Personal feeling if it was me. Proof by DNA. Offer him his rights if he doesn’t want them love that baby yourself and wait for the right father to come along. Don’t hang up on a man because he got you pregnant, if he’s not man enough now to step up he won’t ever. It will be a waste of time and energy on your part to worry if he’ll show up for visitation or keep baby safe when he’s around. Be a happy Mom and keep it real!

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It’s not about him or you it’s about the child child support is not for you but for the child and later on its the child’s choice to chose wether to see father or not to so yes put name down

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My bio dad isn’t on my birth certificate, my dad is though. My bonus dad raised me from the age of two, adopted me at four. I had questions over the years, but after my mom passed away, I met my bio dad by choice. Now I have two dads, extra siblings, a bonus mom from my bio dad, etc. I think my mom did what she had to do, I turned out fine. :woman_shrugging:t2::woman_shrugging:t2:

Don’t put his name on. You got this girl. Our Father in heaven will never let you down

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As a child who had no father listed on my birth certificate I would urge you to include him. I had many questions that went unanswered. My biological father chose to take no part is raising me or having a relationship with me however, he was still the one who helped to create me. I found out who he was on my own through a lot of digging. Shortly after I found out who he was, he was murdered.

If you choose not to include him then take the time to explain that to your child once they are old enough and be open with them. There is no right or wrong decision, it’s just in how you choose to handle it with your child.

Leave him off the birth certificate. He already told you his choice. He can do a paternity test and take you to court for parental rights if and when he ever chooses to want them. But be aware there will be no child support. But also - nobody needs $200 a month badly enough to put up with anyone whose response to this wonderful good news is get an abortion. Move on and leave him behind.

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While women are capble of raising healthy and strong children by themselves, one never knows if a future disease or accident might raise the need for a donor, or parental contact. This will help the child locate the other parent if needed. It is always wise to have it documented in case it is needed. Afterall, we must provide fully for the child, which means also letting the child have access to information of its heritage, parentage and other family is needed.

Don’t use his name he Still can be Ordered too Pay Child Support!!
Get to someone who can help you help yourself and your Sweet Baby

If he doesn’t want anything to do with the child, I say don’t put him on the birth certificate and don’t try for child support. If you do he could come back in the childs life later and cause nothing but pain for her.

He would have to take a paternity test anyways if you got him on child support. If he doesn’t want to be involved his loss!! My dad wasn’t even there when I was born and my mom insisted on having him on the birth certificate and still to this day it bothers me.

His name does not have to be on the birth certificate to claim child support. I was 16 when I got pregnant and 17 When I gave birth to my now 36 year old daughter. I didn’t put the father’s name on the birth certificate because we had broken up when I was 5 months pregnant. She had my last name, but I received welfare, therefore I had to tell them who the father was. He was a 20 year old Navy sailor when we dated and yes my parents knew. Anyway, for whatever reason he was never located until just before her 15th birthday, and I never received a dime of support from him until then. When he was finally located paternity was established via DNA and he was ordered to pay child support by the court., but only from that point until she turned 18. His name was never added to her birth certificate until last year when she chose to add it to it. And she chose to keep my last name until she was married just this past May.

You can absolutely put the bio dad on his bc. You don’t have to give your child his last name. If you decide to go the child support route, I would go through a child support enforcement. You can also just raise your child without the father’s help and find out what your rights are in your state because they’re all different. He could feel guilty later on and all of a sudden want to see the child. So make sure you set up a plan to protect yourself and your child.

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A father is not a sperm donor. A father looks after his child and wants nothing but the best for his child. I’ll personally leave it off. What happens in 5 years time if he comes back and takes you to court for custody all of a sudden, how traumatic for you and your child! I’d just be open and honest with said child when the time comes they ask questions. They have a right to know, but that doesn’t mean he should be able to have a legal right to your child when he hasn’t wanted a relationship from the start.

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I wouldn’t put him on there. I’d also give your kiddo your last name, trust me you will be glad you did.

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Mmm I think it doesn’t matter either way. There’s ways of getting around not paying child support even though they are on the birth certificate. The situation is really shit and I am truly sorry but it seems like either way he is not going to help

If he is the legit father then yes put his name down. He should pay child support either way.

If if was me in your position, i’d put him down And claim child support. Because being a single parent is hard enough until you have to start worrying about money.

I wasnt with my kid’s dad when she was born and he really didn’t have a whole lot to do with her her first 10 years of life. But I always told him he was welcome to see her. Finally they were able to do things together. I think as long as the child is safe with him it’s important for a child to know and spend time with their other parent.

Also if you died he wouldn’t necessarily have full rights to your child. But that is something you would discuss with like your parents or any of your siblings to see if they would take custody. If he so chooses to fight that then the court would decide who deems fit to have custody of your child.

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Nope but you should consider whether or now you will file for child support as this can effect that process

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In NC the father has to be there to put his name on birth certificate . My grandaughters is blank for almost same circumstances.

You need to do what what is right for you and your baby now. The name can always be changed later if he wants to carry their Dad’s name or even if Dad does step up. But remember Someday that baby will be a grown up and will seek out their Father, for personnel , or medical, or just plain curiosity reasons. But never hide the truth because it will come out and then they will feel betrayed by you And try not to put down their Dad to them let them make up their own mind up about their Dad. You might need to be strong for them to help them through any negativiness they might receive from their Father.

Since you are not married, you may not be able to him on the birth certificate. Some states require a signed admission of paternity to put him in the birth certificate. Also if he is on the birth certificate he will need to give permission if you want to get the minor child a passport. Find out what you states laws are.

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If he wants you to abort then don’t put his name on it. This kid is 100% yours. You’ll be better off without having to deal with all the extra stuff. You’ll be a great mama💕

You made the decision to keep your baby. Whatever the situation is, whatever happened. You are having a baby. I don’t know what your situation is as far as emotional support, financial supports, age and child relief care. Is there someone to help you when have to go somewhere or do something and most Important emotional support. Are you working? You have to make your own decision. You don’t know what will happen down the road. Since this was consensual, I wouldn’t give him the time of day. Just know you were going to be blessed with a beautiful child who will grow up knowing that their mother always wants of them. God watch over you And keep you safe.

If I were in your situation I would just put distance between me and him and hope he doesn’t come knocking later on! You don’t want to keep trying with someone who clearly thinks so little of you and your baby :heart:

I wouldn’t if he told you to get an abortion I would just keep records of the messages between the two of you. My ex didn’t help with my daughter told me I was a bitch and only wanted his money to keep up my “lifestyle” which all I did was work and take care of my daughter so he never paid childsupport and then she turned 4 and he all of a sudden came after my daughter for 5050 and even though the judge had all the information she gave him 5050 no child support no back pay I pay her Insurance and all her doctor bills he literally has no responsibility to her and yet has 5050 so I wouldn’t and just keep a record if your kid wants to find him later.

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If he wants to be in his child’s life, Regardless of his name is on the BC, he can take you to court, request a paternity test to be done. Once it is done and he is found to be the father, he will have rights to his child. If you try to get any type of state benefits for your child, you will be required to have the father’s paternity tested. My point: Just cuz you do not put his name on the BC doesn’t mean he isn’t the father and doesn’t have rights. It takes two to tango and he has just as much rights to the child as the mother does.

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Make the SOB pay for child support & later the child may want to know him so that way you won’t have taken his/her father away from him/her. Children have a way of imagining how things would have been if they had a father that you would not let be in their life, they will find out eventually as they get older exactly what he is like. Don’t bad mouth the jerk as it can come back to haunt you, good luck!

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Unpopular opinion here; why do a lot of people think it’s ok when the bio father tells the mom to have an abortion, but not ok for a woman to get an abortion?? Because he isn’t carrying the child so it doesn’t make him a murderer? I’m so lost.

BTW, I think both parties should have the right to decide to be a parent. Women should be able to have an abortion or give up parental rights, without the father’s consent. AND men should be able to sign their rights over and never have to deal with it again, if the baby is born. However, there should be legal ways to do all of these things. If a women doesn’t want the child and neither does the father, coll abortion or adoption. If one party wants the child and the other doesn’t, you can’t just say I don’t want it and that be the end of it. There needs to be national legal ways to go about this.

In this instance, the father isn’t absolved from his responsibility just because he said over text that he doesn’t want the child. He has to go to the court and sign all the paperwork that in turn makes it so.

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Always claim child support. The baby will have expensive needs.

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The birth certificate is the child’s not yours. My kids dad cheated on me and got a girl pregnant and he told her she could keep the baby but he wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Hid it from me for 8 months. That child is almost 9 now and he has had contact with her for a few years now, our 2 daughters have had contact with her since they were born long before I split with him, because that’s their sister. None of mine or their dads business to stop that relationship. I’ve had my entire fathets side of my family kept away from me because of my mother’s opinion and if you want your child to resent you go ahead and hide him to suit your feelings ignoring your child’s feelings but if you wanna do the right thing you put the name on the birth cert.

With you not being married you’d have to have him with you anyway to be put on the birth certificate. So if he’s refusing the child now then doubt he’d want to be there to register the baby. So…. He wouldn’t be on it.

As someone who was a result of a similar situation, my mom didn’t put the sperm donor’s name on my birth certificate. My mom had plenty of support-both financial and moral. She did tell me the truth about the sperm donor ever since I was a kid and never tried to hide anything. I’m now 24 years old and have grown to be strong and independent and adore my mom w all my heart.

It’s a hard question. My thoughts would be how will not putting his name on my child’s birth certificate effect my child… I personally think that if I grew up without a fathers name on my birth certificate I would feel a void like something was missing. I would probably put his name on the certificate to be honest about who dad is but I would also contact a solicitor to make sure I was doing the right thing and make sure I have full time custody

Don’t let him get off so easily --take his ass to court for child support – force him to acknowledge his child – whether he wants to see him/her or not!! Your child deserves that!

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My birth fathers name was on my birth certificate, he took off when I was 3 but it became a big problem when I was 12 and wanted to travel… I had to track him down and get his permission and signature for a passport… it was a lot and it brought forward a lot of things I didn’t want to have to do… leave it off, but tell him/her who there father is

Just because you put him down on the birth certificate doesn’t mean he has to be involved. Regardless he should be involved physically or financially since you didn’t make this child by yourself. Plus this gives him an option later on to connect IF he wants. Bitterness aside and do what’s best for the child

Been in your spot. My oldest. He said the same thing ABORT! I told him to go to hell. My first baby’s a beautiful 41 yr. Lady. I gave her my maiden name and excluded him out of her life. I’ve never regreted any of my decisions . He didn’t deserve to have any part in her life.

He’ll have rights anyway.
For the child’s sake, put him on the birth certificate. It might take 20-30 years but you’ll be thanked for it.
My personal opinion from my own experience.

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Don’t put his name on it. My ex husband left when my daughter was 2 and she is now 18 and still has not seen him. He opened a fb page under a totally different name and talked to her when she was a teenager and lied and told her he sent gift and they were all returned we never ever got a gift in the mail with him. She told him he was a loser. He did pay child support and fell behind a couple of times and had him locked up and license taken away. You can do it on your own.

No his name should not be on the certificate. He won’t contribute to your upbringing like my dad didn’t. He left my mum when she was pregnant at 23. I am 70 now he paid a pound a week for my maintenance then as soon as I was 16 he went to Australia. I know where he lives but he’s not bothered with me in all my years so sod him!

Don’t ruin the right to your child! A child will question all this later in life. For your child’s sake give the father opportunity to have the father on that certificate. Don’t be bitter.
I am speaking from experience. My mom left my fathers name without a choice.

I kept my ex’s name off my son’s birth certificate. We ended up splitting up and I’m now married to a wonderful man. Long story short, my husband wanted to adopt my son. Even though my ex’s name isn’t on the birth certificate, we still had to hunt him down to get him to sign off his rights for the adoption to proceed. This is in California 2018. Not sure which state you’re in, but I’m assuming laws will be different depending where you are.